Bladeweaver Fix

[Soulein]

According to Shadowbane Lore, the Blade Weavers are supposed to be masters of swordmanship...practicing their dance for thousands of years. I find it interesting that Bladeweavers only have rank 35 weapon powers and Blademasters (who are supposed to be a mockery of the original elven dance) recieve GM powers (this is in the case of warriors of course).

I propose that:
BW Weapon powers be fixed to be equal to BM weapon powers.

Bladedance (and Whirlwind attack in the case of Blademasters) be made usefull...make it Dex based and perhaps give it some more range or damage.

Perhaps add a mini-rage (for both BM and BW) for a reason to include these disciplines in a template rather than just making a throwing character (and STILL reaping the benefites of riposte,feint,and FW).

Just some thoughts from a very Elf crazed player.

[Soulwanderer]

...I can foresee this forum getting flooded very quickly.

[Brindle]

Instead of a mini-rage, a quick (30sec duration 2min recast)"flurry of blows" that stacks with current weapon speed buffs...

[__Pyn__]

How about just fixing the elf con/hp ratio?

[Brindle]

Elves stereotypically are glass canons in both melee and casting classes. I think increasing their dps but keeping them fragile will still allow them to be a challenging class to play and keep alive.

[Longblade]

BladeWeavers have ambi which gives BW approximately +10% more base damage than Blademasters and 150 to 165 greater base atr. The actual damage bonus is more with 'Warlord' type prefixes. The lower max power lvls and the increased stamina use of ambi, somewhat balances these BW 'free' advantages.

I, as well as many others, also agree that something needs to done to make the disc weapons more effective in comparison to non-discs weapons.

The powers related to both the BM and BW discs are generally considered weapon powers. However they are disc powers, like werewolf, Bloodhorn, thrall, werebear and wererat. Unlike other disc powers BW and BM do not have:
- any 100/100 powers
- availability to use wpn powers with any wpn other than the designated disc wpn
- significant stat and movement bonuses

At the moment I would be happy to see at least 2 +100%/+100% weapon powers added to the discs, a reasonable bump to the BM/BW focus skill, and a power that is unlocked at 115% of the respective focus lines.

[Zenjah]

At the moment I would be happy to see at least 2 +100%/+100% weapon powers added to the discs, a reasonable bump to the BM/BW focus skill, and a power that is unlocked at 115% of the respective focus lines.

The +100% atr powers that the wereforms are granted are balanced by the fact that wereforms are incompatible with spellcasting.

If you give them out to BW/BM you make those weapons must-haves for casters for style-casting. Perhaps it could be balanced, just pointing that out.

[Longblade]

BMs and BWs do not have auto GM wpn powers. Adjusting the powers to +100% rather than +75%, at GM, would have little impact on professions that only receive 5 or 10 lvl BM/BW powers.

[Zenjah]

BMs and BWs do not have auto GM wpn powers. Adjusting the powers to +100% rather than +75%, at GM, would have little impact on professions that only receive 5 or 10 lvl BM/BW powers.

Oh I see, I thought you meant Auto-GM powers like the weapon powers granted by Wereform discs.

[AshenTemper]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

Thoughts?

[KenshinDC]

Here's my idea on the Bladeweaving:

- Fighters and Rogues get them at GM provided you make them available by training up to a certain % in BW

- Healers/Mages get them at Level 20 for stylecasting purposes by training BW up

- Change disc to give +10 to Sword and Blade Weaving

- Make BW powers useable with shield in hand (I've tried making various builds where BW Sword/Shield would be very viable, but then I am unable to use the BW powers since it requires the sword to be in the same slot as your shield)

[AshenTemper]

- Make BW powers useable with shield in hand (I've tried making various builds where BW Sword/Shield would be very viable, but then I am unable to use the BW powers since it requires the sword to be in the same slot as your shield)

Why?

[Zenjah]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

Thoughts?

An increase on Fighter and Rogue BW powers would be welcome. I won't argue against giving them at GM to all Fighters and Rogues, that would be sweet.

Short of that, it would be a start to grant BW powers of at least the same level each class currently gets Sword Mastery powers.

This would give Warriors GM BW powers, Thieves would get 35, Rangers and Crusaders would get 30, Bards and Sentinels would get 20, etc. This might be more balanced because GM weapon powers on something like a Bard could be overpowered.

A few classes, for example Scouts, would probably need them to be higher than the level 5 sword powers available-- perhaps a minimum of 20 for all Fighters and Rogues?

[Soulein]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

Thoughts?

That would be pretty awesome, as fighters and rogues would be more likely to spend more time focusing their sword skills. Bladedance (whirlwhind attack for BM) needs work...as it is it is uselss. A 115% Blade Weaving power such as a rage or stun/ground would be sweet.

[Makomaster]

What about something that would make you able to increase the damage of the sword, such as a hone, but only useable on the BW or BM sword? Since they are the masters of the blade to me it makes sense for them to do more damage with them.

[KenshinDC]

Why?
Well, I see why you would question it since they're supposed to be Bladeweaving, yet they aren't bladeweaving with a single sword, but...

Being able to use their shortlived, gimpy Def Debuff, Stun, Powerblock, ATK debuff, etc. powers would be quite helpful.

Bladeweaving, like sword powers are based more around giving more ATK rather than DMG. So making it where Fighter/Healer bases could wield a shield along with their BW sword would make it where they could still gain stylecasting/ATK benefits that most Healers apply it for in the first place. In terms of fighters... There have been a few people make sword/shield Warriors that were alright, so BW sword/shield Warriors would have the same application and more effective with all their weapon powers.

But ya, if ya don't like it because having only one sword isn't Bladeweaving... I totally understand. Just trying to give Fighter/Healers the ability to wield shields with a BW Weapon for better stylecasting on Elf Healer Toons (Druids, Prelates, Crusaders, Doomsayers, Channelers, etc.)

[Nocterminus]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

As much as I hate the idea of more love for heavy melee, this makes sense as warriors usually get GM powers across the board anyway. Gving them GM to a rogue would be awesome....BW thieves would be a real contender with the extra stam boost more likely FOTM (but anything is better than vamps and elves are due for some FOTM status just as it is time for a little roguebane :) ). This does also provide yet another GM def debuff so that may not be popluar.

Well, I see why you would question it since they're supposed to be Bladeweaving, yet they aren't bladeweaving with a single sword, but...

Being able to use their shortlived, gimpy Def Debuff, Stun, Powerblock, ATK debuff, etc. powers would be quite helpful.

Bladeweaving, like sword powers are based more around giving more ATK rather than DMG. So making it where Fighter/Healer bases could wield a shield along with their BW sword would make it where they could still gain stylecasting/ATK benefits that most Healers apply it for in the first place. In terms of fighters... There have been a few people make sword/shield Warriors that were alright, so BW sword/shield Warriors would have the same application and more effective with all their weapon powers.

But ya, if ya don't like it because having only one sword isn't Bladeweaving... I totally understand. Just trying to give Fighter/Healers the ability to wield shields with a BW Weapon for better stylecasting on Elf Healer Toons (Druids, Prelates, Crusaders, Doomsayers, Channelers, etc.)

We don't need anymore stylecasting.....they can use hammer powers like they have been and even that is too much.

[AshenTemper]

Well, I see why you would question it since they're supposed to be Bladeweaving, yet they aren't bladeweaving with a single sword, but...

Now, some of you will see this as a bad reason for why I do not like it but it comes down to the Lore. I know, I know, but that is my reasoning. Bladeweavers see Blade Mastery as the bastardation (sp?) of their true sword skill. Blade Weavers have been trained how two weapons can be the ultimate offense and defense; not one blade but both.

[Agelmar]

Now, some of you will see this as a bad reason for why I do not like it but it comes down to the Lore. I know, I know, but that is my reasoning. Bladeweavers see Blade Mastery as the bastardation (sp?) of their true sword skill. Blade Weavers have been trained how two weapons can be the ultimate offense and defense; not one blade but both.


Then add +parry to the Bladweaver disc.

[Longblade]

Please no more disc freebies that are not directly tied to using disc weapons.
+ parry at xyz% bladeweaving is better than a naked +parry to anyone that happens to double click on a rune.

[Soulein]

I could see the reasoning for a Rage as a sort of state of mind that a master Blade Weaver can enter in battle. This justifies the 115% BW skill requirement. If not a rage then a strike that only a master Blade Weaver could accomplish would be nice (perhaps the equivalent of the DK stun or maybe a blind hey even both :D) .

But fixing powers and Bladedance should be the top priority.

[Brindle]

Or have bladeweaving have a secondary effect on parry i.e. for every 2 points in BW, your parry % increases by 1

[Malykai]

Or have bladeweaving have a secondary effect on parry i.e. for every 2 points in BW, your parry % increases by 1

I like Bladeweaving like anyone else, but what we are discussing here is giving a disc a 115% weaver only power that doesn't totally unbalance the use of the disc.

Idea 1: The mini rage.

Speed Option: That's all good and all but you realize that bladeweaving swords are already a "very fast" class weapon. Adding a mini speed rage would only cap your speed that would be close to cap anyway with alacrity. Therefore, do you give the bladeweaver the benefit of breaking the speed cap? This would cause double, triple or even quad tapping per hand. That would be completely overpoowered. So aside from the speed.

Damage Option: The addition of extra damage to the power set which currently as is, is not underbalanced by any means might cause problems when stacked with other buffs like the commander damage buff. If it didn't stack with commander it would be otherwise useless since Commander with run and damage chant are almost a necessity with any warrior bladeweaver. So 3-500 damage per hand on a correctly built bladeweaver warrior isn't good enough? The proposal here would be to increase or double stack the mini-rage with the currently employed disc and chant powers? This again seems to imbalance a bit.

Idea 2: The 115% parry unlock.

Idea 1: Parry increase as per the amount of skill in Bladeweaving or Blademastery. 1 for 2? 1 point in parry for every two points in bladeweaving would be insanely overbalanced. think about it, I currently have a BW with only a 66 INT with a 135(nongolded) bladeweaving and I have golded his parry. If this were an addition to that skillset at 130 parry (base) adding the 67 points that the bladeweaving skill would afford would put me at 197 parry. Would anything hit you if you decided to active parry? I would guess, anything physical would certainly not be able to even come close to bypassing your passive defense.

Idea 2: A secondary parry power designed to increase, for a short period, your passive parry ability. It would be in addition to your warrior afforded active parry power. This would give you a second parry ability and allow for a significant time for active parry per combat. One would have to be sure the two power timers would offset to a point in which you could not just keep cycling the two and continue parrying continuously.

I do agree that increase in the disc powers is necessary, I am just giving another insight as to the possible reprecussions to the current suggestions. Nice to have more perspective when tackling an issue such as this.

Anyway, there you have it. Do with it what you will.



"They come and go like a fart in a dust storm."

[Sholvorn]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

Thoughts?

I like this idea, and could you please make blade dance rank better, and/or make it aoe dot that ticks about 4 to 6 times or count as 4 to 6 swings, in the animation you look like you're making about 6 attacks, and as long as it takes to perform, at least it would match up with the results. In its current state its pretty anticlimatic, all that effort for about 50 damage after resists....its sad really, a waste of trains and 18 to 25 stamina most elves usually don't have to spare.....oh and abit of a range increase on it wouldn't hurt my feelings either. :cool:

[Avarix]

Now, some of you will see this as a bad reason for why I do not like it but it comes down to the Lore. I know, I know, but that is my reasoning. Bladeweavers see Blade Mastery as the bastardation (sp?) of their true sword skill. Blade Weavers have been trained how two weapons can be the ultimate offense and defense; not one blade but both.

But with the sword and shield you could run around looking like all cool and stuff.

But seriously, I personally have no problems with Blade weavers in general past there gimped weapon power ranks. Past that they get a rather long stun and power block for having the DPS of swords. Blade weaver warriors and rangers are one of my most feared enemies next to a sundancer when playing a caster.

[Kaelthas]

What if Blade Weaving Powers are increased dependent upon the Elf's Base Class? Perhaps Fighter and Rogue's can get them GM'd but Healers and Mages stay where they are.

Thoughts?

I support this. Right now BM warriors > BW warriors, seeing

1. BM warrior get better weapon powers than BW warrior
2. BM get knight and dark knight
3. BM uses less stamina, and thus can style more and end up with more dps
4. BM is less affacted by damage shield such as riptose
5. BM has more health and thus survivability

In the lore BM was the mockery of BW. But it seems otherwise in practice.

[Longblade]

I support this. Right now BM warriors > BW warriors, seeing

1. BM warrior get better weapon powers than BW warrior
2. BM get knight and dark knight
3. BM uses less stamina, and thus can style more and end up with more dps
4. BM is less affacted by damage shield such as riptose
5. BM has more health and thus survivability

In the lore BM was the mockery of BW. But it seems otherwise in practice. This is not a BM/BW comparison. BW can out dps a BM with a higher atr and can get almost as much health. This just is not an argument that you want to have, and it does nothing for either disc.

[Kaelthas]

This is not a BM/BW comparison. BW can out dps a BM with a higher atr and can get almost as much health. This just is not an argument that you want to have, and it does nothing for either disc.

To balance a game you need to compare. And in practice BW will NOT out dps BM, thanks to the lower stamina usage of BM and thus the ability to spam more powers. Also in practice BM will have better atr thanks to blind from DK. As for health, there is no argument that human > elf. In conclusion, BM outperform BW in dps, atr and health. The level of competitiveness of BW will need to be raised.

[Longblade]

To balance a game you need to compare. And in practice BW will NOT out dps BM, thanks to the lower stamina usage of BM and thus the ability to spam more powers. Also in practice BM will have better atr thanks to blind from DK. As for health, there is no argument that human > elf. In conclusion, BM outperform BW in dps, atr and health. The level of competitiveness of BW will need to be raised. In practice BWs use stam pots and still out dps BMs, In practice blind does not increase atr and has very limited use. As I said BM is not the comparison that helps your argument because BW offers more than BM.

[Soulein]

In practice BWs use stam pots and still out dps BMs, In practice blind does not increase atr and has very limited use. As I said BM is not the comparison that helps your argument because BW offers more than BM.

Yes this discussion is about improving the BW discipline, not compairing it to BM.

In any case...Devs, what do you think of beefing up bladedance or adding a 115% power?

[Sholvorn]

going further i would ask for melee aoes in all 2h weapon classes, like great axe/ great sword / great hammer etc. . real weapon aoe styles with max of 8 targets or so and considerable damage.

It would be awesome to see say 7 minos rush a channy stack and spam thier melee aoes and whipe out an entire stack just as effectively if that same channy stack sat and aoe light/fire/ice the minos.

Well, I don't have any problem with berserker and bm getting the same treatment, but you already see minos double tapping from 500 to 1.3k as it is. I don't think they really need any love, let alone an aoe that does any significant damage.

Elves just don't have the survivablity as most races do when it comes to melee, and they don't quite get the damage output to make up for it.

[Soulein]

Well, I don't have any problem with berserker and bm getting the same treatment, but you already see minos double tapping from 500 to 1.3k as it is. I don't think they really need any love, let alone an aoe that does any significant damage.

Elves just don't have the survivablity as most races do when it comes to melee, and they don't quite get the damage output to make up for it.

Yeah, when im fighting some dwarf conwhore and I barely take his health down a tic while he rips me apart with Tdags or a GA...I get qutie discouraged. The same goes for when I decimate a barb untill he rages and is at full health again while im almost oos.

[Kaelthas]

In practice BWs use stam pots and still out dps BMs, In practice blind does not increase atr and has very limited use. As I said BM is not the comparison that helps your argument because BW offers more than BM.

1st of all, the style of BM gives 25% more damage compare to BW, and on top of that since BM uses less stamina, they will be able to style more, and in the end out dps BW. Stamina pot doesn't work when you are fighting because it will cancel when you are hit. So please, don't give me unrealistic arguments.

2nd, blind does not increase your atr in theory, but it reduces the def of your target, achieving the same effect. The style of BW offer 25% more atr, but blind reduces the opponent def by 30%.

3rd, BM is the best comparison to show that BW is indeed unfit to call himself the master of swordsmanship.

[Longblade]

1st of all, the style of BM gives 25% more damage compare to BW, and on top of that since BM uses less stamina, they will be able to style more, and in the end out dps BW. Stamina pot doesn't work when you are fighting because it will cancel when you are hit. So please, don't give me unrealistic arguments.

2nd, blind does not increase your atr in theory, but it reduces the def of your target, achieving the same effect. The style of BW offer 25% more atr, but blind reduces the opponent def by 30%.

3rd, BM is the best comparison to show that BW is indeed unfit to call himself the master of swordsmanship. Great Sword, and Axe are better dps comparisons because they out dps both BM and BW. Blind comes from another disc and can be cast for 30 sec every 5 mins so it means nothing in this conversation. If you want elves to have access to DK start another thread.

Ambi starts out with 10% more base dps and Morloch weapons give BW FAR MORE DPS than BMs - Style or no style. That damage difference gets incrementally larger with hone.

Stam potions are used between fights and BW have the stamina to take out any build that a BM can take out.

I have played all the above builds for the sole purpose of comparing them to BMs. From your responses you are just guessing at what you think "should" happen. Your assumptions are incorrect.

[Soulein]

Great Sword, and Axe are better dps comparisons because they out dps both BM and BW. Blind comes from another disc and can be cast for 30 sec every 5 mins so it means nothing in this conversation. If you want elves to have access to DK start another thread.

Ambi starts out with 10% more base dps and Morloch weapons give BW FAR MORE DPS than BMs - Style or no style. That damage difference gets incrementally larger with hone.

Stam potions are used between fights and BW have the stamina to take out any build that a BM can take out.

I have played all the above builds for the sole purpose of comparing them to BMs. From your responses you are just guessing at what you think "should" happen. Your assumptions are incorrect.


Which is why any changes to Blade dance should include Whirlwind attack as well.

[Kaelthas]

Blind comes from another disc and can be cast for 30 sec every 5 mins so it means nothing in this conversation. If you want elves to have access to DK start another thread.

The skill blind is added to my argument because you argued that one of the reasons why BW is on par with BM is that BW has better atr. Which is realistically inaccurate, since BM gets blind that reduces target def, thus achieving the same effect.


Ambi starts out with 10% more base dps and Morloch weapons give BW FAR MORE DPS than BMs - Style or no style. That damage difference gets incrementally larger with hone.

Morloch? The one that adds 10 damage per hit? Right. So a BW does 20 more damage per swing. Do you know how much difference is between a styled BM hit and an unstyled BW hit? 75%. And since BW will run out stamina faster than BM vs any high con target, BM will amost always outdamage BW because they can afford to style more. Extra 20 damage per swing is irrelevant when you get outdamaged due to the fact that BW burns stamina fast, and thus will have to resort to more normal hits, as opposed to BM's style spam.


Stam potions are used between fights and BW have the stamina to take out any build that a BM can take out.

So? The fact remains that BM can afford to style more hits, while BW cannot due to the stamina usage.

[Longblade]

The skill blind is added to my argument because you argued that one of the reasons why BW is on par with BM is that BW has better atr. Which is realistically inaccurate, since BM gets blind that reduces target def, thus achieving the same effect.



Morloch? The one that adds 10 damage per hit? Right. So a BW does 20 more damage per swing. Do you know how much difference is between a styled BM hit and an unstyled BW hit? 75%. And since BW will run out stamina faster than BM vs any high con target, BM will amost always outdamage BW because they can afford to style more. Extra 20 damage per swing is irrelevant when you get outdamaged due to the fact that BW burns stamina fast, and thus will have to resort to more normal hits, as opposed to BM's style spam.



So? The fact remains that BM can afford to style more hits, while BW cannot due to the stamina usage. It is clear that you dont understand how wpn spd, 2 swings vs 1 swing, permanent ratings vs spell effects, affect the the effectiveness of builds. That is not a dig at you. BWs generate more dps than BMs and always have a higher atr. It is fact.

My opinion is both need tweaking.

[Kaelthas]

BWs generate more dps than BMs and always have a higher atr. It is fact.


This is fact only if both have the same stamina and stamina usage, and can style the same number of weapon powers. I propose BW grants a stamina buff that reduces stamina usage for the weapon powers.

Edit: Actually, what you said wont be a fact even if both BW and BM can style the same amount, because each style of BM is 175% of his total damage, while each style of BW is 150% of half his total damage. BW uses more stamina, and get crappy returns.

[gremmlynn]

The skill blind is added to my argument because you argued that one of the reasons why BW is on par with BM is that BW has better atr. Which is realistically inaccurate, since BM gets blind that reduces target def, thus achieving the same effect.



Morloch? The one that adds 10 damage per hit? Right. So a BW does 20 more damage per swing. Do you know how much difference is between a styled BM hit and an unstyled BW hit? 75%. And since BW will run out stamina faster than BM vs any high con target, BM will amost always outdamage BW because they can afford to style more. Extra 20 damage per swing is irrelevant when you get outdamaged due to the fact that BW burns stamina fast, and thus will have to resort to more normal hits, as opposed to BM's style spam.



So? The fact remains that BM can afford to style more hits, while BW cannot due to the stamina usage.The Morlochs enchantment cross stacks. In other words, having a Morlochs weapon in one hand gives the bonus to both, having one in each hand gives double effect to both. This damage is affected by damage buffs(knight, commy bard, ranger etc...) and by stance bonuses. A warrior in o-stance using it will yield 30 damage/hand with no bonuses and is higher with a damage chant running.



Ben's Note: Marker.

[BratsCankill]

Yeah, it adds +20 damage per hand before stances and damage buffs are accounted. What it really means is it adds +40 damage per combat round (2 swings) before it's modified.

Unless my math is off, it could come out to +90 damage per combat round, or +45 damage per hand.

[gremmlynn]

Here we go.

Sword and shield bw's using powers would be unbalanced IMO. If a healer wants to use the disc for style casting, he needs to give up block just as mages give up the option for archmage to gain the styles. As far as style casting goes, level 5 BW powers give 3 styles with +46% ATR. This so outpaces a healers hammer(+19%?) that I see no reason it needs to be raised. Precise stance should have a reason to exist and forcing it's use is what those high defence builds are all about. People don't spend a lot of trains to gain defence simply to force casters to use insignificant amounts of stam to hit them.

As I wasn't in on beta, this part is hearsay I've gotten from those who were, so any corrections from someone who knows better would be appreciated.
BM and BW were balanced in Beta, this is why BW powers are not GM anywhere. Rather than lowering the effects tables across the board for BW's, they were left as were and the powers granted at lesser effect.
Wirlwind Attack/Bladedance were sick, sick powers at that time and nerfed accordingly. Personally, I find weapon AOE's with much more power or range to be over the top. One change I would make would be to reduce the casting time to that of a normal attack animation.

Back to facts.
Elves are squishier than the races that can take BM. Elves are also more dexterous, thus doing more damage and having more defencive potential. Elves also have higher base and max intelligence for a bit more of everything.
Thus the low con argument falls flat( having a potential 140 con is nothing to sneeze at either).

Any changes to the power levels should be tested carefully. Granting GM powers to all fighter bases could be overpowering to classes such as ranger and even sentinel and IMO should be reserved for warriors if granted at all.

As it stands now, my BW scouts get lvl 5 sword and lvl 10 BW powers. I find this sufficient to the task as it is a scout, not a sword master. If that was what I was after, I would have made a ranger and given up the scout powers. Thus balance is served.

[Zenjah]

Personally, I find weapon AOE's with much more power or range to be over the top. One change I would make would be to reduce the casting time to that of a normal attack animation.

You train and use the AOE on your BW?

[Longblade]

Yeah, it adds +20 damage per hand before stances and damage buffs are accounted. What it really means is it adds +40 damage per combat round (2 swings) before it's modified.

Unless my math is off, it could come out to +90 damage per combat round, or +45 damage per hand. And 1h swords swing faster than 2h swords so an ambi build will swing more than 2 to 1 to a 2h build. Again all this is not even taking HONE, or proccs from proccing professions into account.

Back to talking about BWs

[gremmlynn]

You train and use the AOE on your BW?I have, even revealed a very poor scout with the berserker version once. Best use was to get grobalds to stack for me and taking down 7 in one attack. Worth a train for laughs and AFK stealthers IMO.

[Turiel]

I woudl like it if fighter and rogues got better BW powers since I think the master sword wielders should have pretty nice powers, also make the aoe abit better

atm its a pos, I use it for novelties sake since it looks cool but it really has no functional value

[Soulein]

Devs? Thoughts?

[VargVikernes]

I support any Bladeweaver love. I love the elves.

[BenSBG]

BW seems ok to me. But then I dont play one, so I'm lurking.

[Soulein]

I have 4, maybe a 5th in the works.

[Aurake]

BW's are a little weak in my oppinion. I've done a few builds, though admittedly not warrior ones (prelate [sword and board for a while, then duelwield], priest, scout, ranger).

I think what kills them is if you want to take advantage of the good elven dex you have to destroy your con. It gives you too few hit points and not enough stamina.

I'd say if BW is going to get a new power, it should either be an evasive power or a stamina saving power.

I think BW output is fine, and they need more staying power since they're elves though.

Also, they should get the same level BW powers as sword mastery with a minimum of level 20 powers (I'd say even for healers/mages, but you can give them minimum of 5 or 10, it's fine).

Also, BW an Archmage shouldn't be exclusive. I don't want it so much for style casting, but I'd love a mage who could power block.

[Longblade]

BW seems ok to me. But then I dont play one, so I'm lurking. The issue with BladeWeaver is that it is a discipline, and the weapon powers it grants are discipline powers, rather than regular weapon powers. When you compare the BW disc powers to other disc powers (with the exception of BM), BW falls short.

Other Discs Weapon powers are:
- auto GM
- often have one or 2 +100% to dam or atr
- can be used with ANY weapon
- +10sword is not enough to balance the fact that BW str/dex hybrid weapons

BladeMaster has similar issues but does not recieve FREE ambi and is not available to as wide a selection of professions. Neither disc is balanced correctly as a combat disc.

[Aurake]

The issue with BladeWeaver is that it is a discipline, and the weapon powers it grants are discipline powers, rather than regular weapon powers. When you compare the BW disc powers to other disc powers (with the exception of BM), BW falls short.

Other Discs Weapon powers are:
- auto GM
- often have one or 2 +100% to dam or atr
- can be used with ANY weapon
- +10sword is not enough to balance the fact that BW str/dex hybrid weapons

BladeMaster has similar issues but does not recieve FREE ambi and is not available to as wide a selection of professions. Neither disc is balanced correctly as a combat disc.

Longblade, as where I respect you and you've always been full of good information, I believe you are slightly mistaken here.

- can be used with ANY weapon
Most weapon powers that disciplines grant (and I believe them to truely be weapon powers, not discipline powers, even if granted via discipline) have restrictions on them. BW required t-lans, BM requires a longblade, wereforms require you to be in form, giant-killer required a great axe (con stripper, not the snare), wyrmslayer a spear, sundancer unarmed weapons.

They all work like weapon powers (must in combat mode, affects applied on next attack) and thus I think should be treated as such. The only reason they're different then weapon powers is because there is no prerequiste on the mastery.

Also, all the "redefining" disciplines (BW, BM, SD) grant weapon powers at different ranks to different clases.

- often have one or 2 +100% to dam or atr
Giant Killer provides 1 75%dmg/75%atr weapon style
Wymslayer provides 1 50%dmg/100%atr weapon styles.

I personally I feel that weapon powers granted through disciplines should be modeled after the weapons they require as far as dmg/atr go, but this is fully debateable, especially on "redefining" disciplines

- auto GM
This is mostly true of the wereforms, where the weapon style doesn't have anything to do with the weapon. Though I beleive everyone gets GM wymslayer weapon powers, I *think* the giant killer's weapon power comes at different levels. And as stated before, BM/BW/SD all have different weapon powers for different classes.

- +10sword is not enough to balance the fact that BW str/dex hybrid weapons
You are SO correct on this. My 200 base dex (like 270-300 with buffs and gear) lost sword (and I think sword mastery, but I don't remember) skill when they changed it to strength, and still had a net loss after they added 10% for applying BW.

- FREE ambi
Trust me, you pay for being an elf.

---------------------------------
On an aside, I was thinking, bladeweaver ought to add a +50% stacking defense buff (depending on the way stacking works). This lets you bring a 2000 defense elf up to 3000, which then gets cut down to 1770 when you get def debuffed, that way you can actually stay alive as an elf. 1600-1700 defense is where mages start missing on you with fair regularity. Healers can sometimes hit that if they have decent atr and style cast. Warlocks will destroy someone with only 2000 defense. It should work like a rage, last anywhere between 1-1.5 minutes, and be on whatever a rage recycle is on.

I don't know how balanced that would be on warriors (I know alot of people will scream thats horribly unbalanced, but seriously, try playing a rogue elf, and you die the second a defense debuff hits you, even if you're fast you don't have much time to run away seeing as some great axe users could 1 shot you) as I hear they can obtain reasonable HP, though I'm not sure if they can maintain defense and damage while doing that. At 115% bladeweaving, it's a heafy cost to pay as well, especially on train tight def toons.

[Soulein]

Great post Aurake. And trust me, I know how hard it is playing an elf (and trying to do open field with them).

While your idea is valid, I was thinking more along the lines of a HP/Stam/Damage increase or a HP/Stam % heal with a damage increase or stat buff. Playing elves, I have learned to work with their strengths and weaknesses. And, a 50% defense buff will give every template an excuse to apply BW. BW's are supposed to be the elite of the elite- and while this would help out ALL our squishy templates... it would be slightly overpowered. Focusing on the offensive aspect of the Blade Weaver would make the rune more suitable for those who would actually wield Tlanarions.

Also, fix bladedance.

[Aurake]

I completely meant for the def rage to require 2 t-lans equipped. And remember this is a power you get for having 115% bladeweaving. This isn't a "I apply a rune and get free defense". 115% bladeweaving is probably a 60-80 train point sink in it's self. Not cheap, but not too expensive for def toons who use t-lans as their main damage. Seeing as you have to train sword up to 100% (I don't know if you can use the lower t-lans for BW styles or not) it's actually a point heavy investment that I think would extreamly weaken non t-lan meleers.

O-stanced fighter/rogues would probably be able to reach 1600-1700 (I'm completely making up these numbers, but I assume you could get 100 def in o-stance if you really tried with spiked armor and dex, int, and 65 con) def which means you'd have a somewhat survivable o-stance elf. 1600-1700 still gets hit by more toons then you'd like when you have low HP.

D-stancers would get the real boon here, being able to stand for a bit against *most* people after having a def buff landed on them. They'd die if they were blinded after that. I *doubt* you could make an effective d-stance nuker (I'm thinking saders/huntresses are the only ones that could try this) that would be able to afford a 80-100 point sink into defense. However, you could afford to have that if your damage output came from your swords.

Healers would have to give up their shields, but they could still be done. It'd actually be interesting to see BW elf priests who had good defense in o-stance.

Mages I think would still mostly prefer archmage for the mage rage. It might bring a new game to elf MA's who could get decent defense (more then adaquate after blinding) to be an MA who gets good defense in o-stance.

Don't forget, this should only last 60-90 seconds, on a recast, so it is NOT a maintainable level of defense.

Oh yeah, I think arch-mage, but i'd be happy enough to see it on bladeweaver (though I don't think they should be mutually exclusive) should get an anti mino power. We frigging made them, we don't know any secret weak spot of theirs except their mild magic weakness? I'll make another post about that though.

[Longblade]

I can see where there is room for misunderstanding with some of my assessments so let me take a second to clarify.

I did say that weapon powers from disc "often" (not always) give +100 to either damage or atr. Lets also look at the powers that you have mentioned that are on par with BW/BM weapon powers in terms of atr/dam bonuses.
- Wyrmslayer's "Drakesbreath" gives a GM snare AND a debuffable DoT that is 50% bigger than weapon bleeds.
- Giant Killer's "Cut Down to Size" lets the attacker remove GM con buffs on top of its increase to atr and dam.

Those powers far outstrip the standard weapon powers available in the game. That includes those disc weapon powers available from BW.

Giant Killer and Wymslayer are the only discs that are as restrictive in their weapon selection as BW/BM. I believe SD can use any UA weapon for SD powers. I am 100% sure NS graces can make use of them. Mino discs do not restict weapons, and as you mentioned above, wereforms do not restrict weapons. I also dont think it is a sever hinderence to be in were form to use powers when those forms give big stat and movement increases.

I think the disc itself needs to be balanced rather than trying to make up for the inherent weaknesses of elves. Con based Elves only have 350, or so, less health than a con based human build. I can see adding a stam heal or regen power to BW but the def rage may be a bit much.

Focusing on smaller steps have a much better chance of seeing some kind of result.

[Aurake]

I think the feeling that discipline granted weapon powers tends to provide a +100% style is based on the were-discs, which I believe all grant 2 100%/100% styles.

Here's a break down of disciplines that provide weapon powers that cannot be obtained otherwise (and the ubi site is blocked from my work, so I can't look it up too easily). I've catagorized them the way I view them based on their requirements and benefits, this is subjective to my views. If I've missed any please forgive me, shadowbane.ubi.com is blocked from my work, so I have a bandwidth restriction on my webproxy to get by it (I'm a bad person, sorry, but gotta kill time while waiting on the database guy).

Class Redefining Weapon Specialization
-----
Blade Weaver: style levels vary by class, required t-lans.
Blade Master: style levels vary by class, require longblade,
Sundancer: style levels vary by class, require unarmed.

Racial
-----
Thrall: 2 weapon powers, both 50/50, no restriction.
Blood Horn: 1 weapon power, 75/75, no restriction.

Wereform
-----
Werebear: 1 100/100, 1 100%atr/50%dmg, 1 50/50 style, must be formed.
Werewolf: 2 100%atr/50%dmg styles, 1 50/50 style, must be formed.
Wererat: 1 100/100, 1 100%atr/50%dmg, 1 50/50 style, must be formed.

Theme (Occupation)
-----
Wyrmslayer: 1 100%atr/50%dmg style, must use a spear.
Giant-Killer: 1 75/75 style, must use a great axe.

As you see, Wymslayer is the only discipline outside of were-discs that actually provide a 100% style. I do not know if it's a GM power for everyone, but I believe it is. If you include were-forms, only 4 out of 10 disciplines provide 100% styles.

I do not personally have a problem with BW requiring t-lans to perform it's weapon styles. I think it only makes sense, and it'd be strange to see an elf ranger using BW styles with a staff.

As where GK and WS's weapon powers may be better then "regular" weapon powers, BW adds 4 weapon powers, and provides a stun and power block to a line of weapons that does not normally get them, that is arguably as good or better then a con stripper or snare/DoT.

I think the inherent problem with con based elves if you really have to start asking, why con based elves? Elves have terrible starting con, and if you maximize what they do have (int or dex), you can't take a con rune in game. I can't hit sb.catacombs.com right now, but I believe the point cost to max out con + godly con rune leaves you with a relativly crappy dex. Humans could get a comparable stat layout and more points, their only drawback would be paying for ambi (or going BM and just 2handing it). I don't want to see elves changed in a way that'll allow them to take alot of hits, but I wouldn't mind seeing them given a way to avoid a great many.

[Soulein]

135dex 140 con 60int is doable on an elf fighter.

[Aurake]

See, I think that's the exact problem. If you go the con route on an aelf, you can't capitalize on their good stats.

Elf: 135dex, 140con, 60int
Aelfborn: 160dex, 135con, 65int
Human: 140dex, 140con, 70int
Shade: 155dex, 135con, 65int

Elves fight a loosing stat battle. BW doesn't grant anything that BM doesn't except for it's ambi (which isn't useful on a rogue who already has it).

Aelfborn and shade come out 20-25dex higher with 5 more int for only 5 con. Humans top elves in all stats.

Aelfborns are immune to snare (sort of), shades immune to blind, humans get extra trains.

I feel this very much leaves elves in the dust unless they're capitalizing on their natrual 140 max dex, 200 if you take all dex runes, but this leaves you with 65 max con.

I don't advocate giving elves more con or a elf only con buff.

I would advcoate BW getting some surviability perks, and AM getting some extra damage perks (15 int is really crappy mage rage vs. a beserker rage, and 20% damage? While it's nice, melees get a +50% damage and a -40% attack speed).

[Cyndel]

I feel this very much leaves elves in the dust unless they're capitalizing on their natrual 140 max dex, 200 if you take all dex runes, but this leaves you with 65 max con.

Elves get 210 max DEX and, yes, i'm nit picking.

[Longblade]

See, I think that's the exact problem. If you go the con route on an aelf, you can't capitalize on their good stats.

Elf: 135dex, 140con, 60int
Aelfborn: 160dex, 135con, 65int
Human: 140dex, 140con, 70int
Shade: 155dex, 135con, 65int

Elves fight a loosing stat battle. BW doesn't grant anything that BM doesn't except for it's ambi (which isn't useful on a rogue who already has it).

Aelfborn and shade come out 20-25dex higher with 5 more int for only 5 con. Humans top elves in all stats.

Aelfborns are immune to snare (sort of), shades immune to blind, humans get extra trains.

I feel this very much leaves elves in the dust unless they're capitalizing on their natrual 140 max dex, 200 if you take all dex runes, but this leaves you with 65 max con.

I don't advocate giving elves more con or a elf only con buff.

I would advcoate BW getting some surviability perks, and AM getting some extra damage perks (15 int is really crappy mage rage vs. a beserker rage, and 20% damage? While it's nice, melees get a +50% damage and a -40% attack speed).

There is a reason ambi cost 12pts at creation. As far as the stats on Elves go, they can not be the best at everything. And if any of the races you mentioned above decide to go the ambi route then the Elven stats become as good if not better.

The differences between BM and BW dps and atr are no small thing. Even with elf powers maxing below GM they still outclass BM by a fair margin. It is of course, at the cost of expending more stamina. Also BW give a weapon spd debuff where BM gives a redundant bleed. It is also no small difference. However this brings the conversation back to BM vs BW and that is not where it should be.

The poor base weapon powers of sword should not be a reason to say PB and Stun are great on BW/BM discs. Giant Killer and Wymslayer have access to those powers, plus their disc powers, without being forced to use a hybrid weapon. Even if the atr/dam bonus of those weapons are in line with "regular" weapon powers, the effects attatched to those powers go beyond that of other weapons. That is the point. All "disc" related weapon powers exceed the abilities of "regular" weapon powers except BW/BM. Even SD has numberous +100/+74, or better, powers and is not forced to use a hybrid weapon.


Both discs are not compensated for:
- their base weapons being str/dex hybrids
- their overall weaker weapon powers than what is available from other discs
- having the greatest weapon restictions of disc that allow weapon powers, the 2 other discs that share this restriction have access to 2 of the better weapons in the game.
- being in the lower 50% of disc that do not give GM weapon powers

[Aurake]

My point with the elven stat thing is not maximizing elves high dex or int seems to detract from the reason to take elves (The elven chain coif even moer so if you're stuck in MA). Aelfborn actually beat out elves still if you buy them ambidex. But I don't think the advantages of duel wielding are that great.

I think it's funny you bring up the fact that BM gives a bleed that doesn't stack with the sword bleed, since the BW attack speed debuff doesn't stack with the one swordmastery provides (note you do have to have a few trains in sword mastery, but with elven int, it doesn't take many to get 70 for the extra powers).

But you are correct, we're now getting back onto the BM vs. BW, when we're both in agreement that they both actually need help. So back to the original point.

We actually agree on many points. I believe that it should be possible to receive BW powers (as all disciplines I catagorize with it) at GM with the right class/profession mix.

We agree that it should be given a bonus for training it's focus line high.

We agree that having a strength based focus with dex based damage is not made up for by gaining +10 sword focus on application.

I however don't care about bladedance.

But let me deconstruct why I think BW seems more appealing then it actually is.

----- The Duel Wield Argument

I do strongly believe that "free ambi-dex" is not free. Let me now back this up with reason. Aside from having to be an elf (which I enjoy, though I do believe is often a penalty), and my personal feelings about stat points, there is the fact I do NOT believe duelwield to be a significant advantage in most cases, the noteable one where duel wield is far superior is weapon enchantments (proc's and FM).

The most common argument for duelwield is the bonus atr it provides via weapon enchantments. Let's start with some reasonable assumptions enumerated below.

A) I believe a 2handed melee user will have atleast 1000 atr. I believe my barb has 1150-1250 or so unbuffed, and shes got 60 int, so shes dumb as bricks. I feel most all melees break 1000 atr, but I don't know everyone's build. This isn't the old days where people have 100% sword and 70% sword mastery.

B) Offensive characters that I have tend to have 200-550 defense in o-stance. The funny thing is, my o-stanced character that has the highest defense is my barbarian (unraged), simply because she has 100% armor from SDR so it all has +6 defense instead of being something useful.

C) If the difference between your atr and your target's defense is greater then 100 you will hit 95% of the time (the maximum chance you can have to hit). I believe 100 is a fairly well accepted range for the atr vs. def difference.

If you have 1150 atr, and are atr debuffed with a GM atr debuff (and o-stancers don't bother ATR debuffing unless they can also blind you or if it happens to be a +dmg style) you will have an effective 679atr. This is above the 100 marker for common o-stance defense. So if you had 1300 atr because you were duel wielding you'd get you'd have an effective 767 atr, so you'd still consistantly hit. The bonus you gained from duel wielding is fairly moot.

So, that's atr vs. o-stancers. ATR vs. d-stancers is a different story. Once again, I don't believe anyone who is "defensive" will have less then 1600 defense, and now days if you're not pushing on 2000 defense you're going to die quickly even with out a defense debuff (mages can hit 1600 atr easily, I think my wizzie did it with out even going into the 2 for 1 train on sorc).

I don't believe you'll see many 2handed or 1handed melees running around with greater then 1300 atr, and I think the ones that hit that with out valkyr or fient are few and far between. If you're swinging at 1600 def with 1300 atr, you're going to miss 95% of the time. If you're swinging at 1600 defense with 1450 or 1465, you're going to miss 95% of the time. 1450 might seem much closer to 1600 then 1300, but because of the game mechanics, they both miss 19 out of 20 shots). While styling the 150 or 165 atr bonus can get doubled, to be up to 300-330 atr bonus, however I think this is counter balanced by the fact style spamming on duel wielders run you out of stamina extreamly quickly, especially on elves.

Damage styles for 2handed weapons tend to be better, while atr styles for duel-wieldable weapons tend to be better (spear and and I believe staff are examples mixed style 2handed weapons, note they were both orignally hybrids).

----- The damage argument.
Swords are fast, but not at dagger/unarmed speeds. I don't really know that a Morchloch's t-lan is going to do better then a peerless. While I will conceed Ruin adds more damage to a t-lans then to an equivilable 2handed weapon, 2 handed weapons tend to get recieve better +dmg styles and can be styled more often due to stamina usage. Also because 2 handed weapon hit harder, but swing slower this actually leads to styling doing more damage (better to get +75 damage on a 200dmg swing then a 100dmg swing). I think this in most cases evens out the damage, though I've never studied the numbers closely enough to give you a definitive answer.

----- Proc's.
Proc's make duel wielding completely worth while. However, swords are not the optimal proc weapons. Though the ambidex given to elves does not restrict the weapons actually used.

----- Rogues.
Already have ambidex, so BW does not really grant them free ambidex.

[Longblade]

Anyone that has played many different builds will tell you that ambi is "that good." Free ambi on any of the big melee races would be crushing. So now I am in the ackward situation where I could end up rebutting why ambi is "that good," but that again, is really not the issue.

The issue is that t-lans, and powers from BW, do not utilize ambi as well as other 1h weapons with the powers from other discs. That is problem that needs to be addressed before and racial, lore or other issue is looked at.

Also please dont misunderstand my earlier post. I dont neccissarily think that BW should give GM powers across the board. I do think they should be receive "something" because they dont get GM powers, as well as the other shortcoming I mentioned, to compensate for those shortcomings.

[Aurake]

I played melees for a long time. Most of my rogues were ambi daggers (except my rogue ranger which is ambi BB's, and I had a BW ranger back when rangers were gimp, got rid of him fast though), my fighters tended to be Ambi sword, and I used bows.

Then I got into using 2handed weapons such as spears and axes (never really a big fan of hammers). I've noticed that aside from proc'ing, I have no major problems being 2handed over duel wield. It's a tad bit easier finding the equipment I need (only needing 1 weapon instead of 2), and I don't run out of stamina as quickly (previously I had tended to go for prelates/rangers for their stam regen buffs, or scouts for athletics).

Anyway, all I say, is the "free ambi" should not be weighed heavily if at all as part of the balancing of BW against other disciplines.

I also don't really think BM, BW, nor SD should be balanced against other types of disciplines, as I think they fall within their own catagory of disciplines.

I think both BM and BW (and I think they should both be brought up to par) suffer in their weapon powers for not having GM powers, however, I do believe bringing 5 weapon powers to the table that include a powerblock/stun when they would otherwise not get them is about where it should be with the type of powers.

But all that aside, let's revert the conversation to the thread title.

My suggestion:
1) Increase everyone's BW powers by 5 (this gives GM to warriors I believe).
2) Make Bladedance's damage dex based (I have the feeling the coding behind this is probably harder then we image or they would have done it already), preferably have it's damage set by the swords you're holding, make it a 30 second persistant AoE (10 sec ticks) that follows you. If you really want to beef it up more then that, let it have a chance of having any weapon proc's on your swords go off when it hits someone around you. (bascially find a way to code it that just makes it actually attack everyone around you).
3) Grant us a power at around 115% Bladeweaving power; I'm still in favor of a def rage, as I think it's be a very cool and unique ability for elves (I don't think this should be mirrored onto blademaster). I'd love to see the counter to rage being the elf with 2000hp deftly avoiding the hits.

Let's have some more suggestions on what a unique BW power should be though.

P.S. Longblade, you either stay up way too late, or wake up way too early.

[Longblade]

I also don't really think BM, BW, nor SD should be balanced against other types of disciplines, as I think they fall within their own catagory of disciplines.

P.S. Longblade, you either stay up way too late, or wake up way too early.

I dont sleep, I just nap alot.

Discs should be balanced. They dont need to be the same, but general power levels, via uitility, dps or defense of some sort, need to be balanced. The issue with BW/BM (not SD becuase it is far better balanced than the other 2) is not only the disc powers but also the weapons that must be used to activate those powers.

If you dont think discs should be balanced why do you think BW needs any changes at all.

[Aurake]

I never said discs shouldn't be balanced against disciplines of other other catagories. I think BW/BM/SD should all be actually as powerful, if any were a little weaker I'd say BM (I know you probably hate that comment), as it's open to more races, and the people who use it generally get better disc choices.

Now, I also agree SD is th best of the 3 combat (I've decided that's a better name then "Redefining") disciplines. I think BW and BM should be raised to about that level of usefulness.

I don't think BW needs to be balanced against runecaster because, well they're not mutually exclusive. I mean you could argue BW is a much better discipline then UH, but you could just take them both so *shrugs*.

This is much like I would think if werebear sucked vs. werewolf and wererat, it should be fixed. But if werebear sucked vs. beserker *shrugs* so? take em both.

As to why I want it to get a power bump, 1 I really like elves, though I've been on strike with playing them since the end of War, 2 I really like BW'ers (a really silly reason, they're the only people who can really use 2 weapons that look a little different with out sacraficing anything. And if you use a short and long t-lan like I do, when you go into defensive stance, they make a t and that's just neat coincidence). 3 I want my BW prelate from war server to be uber again.

On that note though, if you think BW needs improvement, and is better then BM. And I think you've said warlocks are under powered, why do you always make BM Warlocks? (hehe, this is a joke btw, not a personal jab, please don't take it as one).

[Kaelthas]

High dexterity is a joke. The best offensive characters are those who spike con. Because the ability to spam weapon powers > that extra 40 dex, since a weapon power will give a damage bonus from 50%-75%, and dex sucks at increasing damage.

[Omnius]

I think the problem here is not the discipline or the race but the templates people are using for bladeweaver. What is so wrong with high con templates people? does the concept of making a non gimp toon frighten people?

There are two types of toons in the shadowbane i play, high con and high int. If you guys know of something else let me know, because I've def never heard of it.

[Longblade]

I think the problem here is not the discipline or the race but the templates people are using for bladeweaver. What is so wrong with high con templates people? does the concept of making a non gimp toon frighten people?

There are two types of toons in the shadowbane i play, high con and high int. If you guys know of something else let me know, because I've def never heard of it. The issue is not con builds vs dex builds.

The issue is that the disc is not compensated for:
- their base weapons being str/dex hybrids
- their overall weaker weapon powers than what is available from other discs
- having the greatest weapon restictions of disc that allow weapon powers, the 2 other discs that share this restriction have access to 2 of the better weapons in the game.
- being in the lower 50% of disc that do not give GM weapon powers

Those issues exist whether your elf is con based or dex based.

[Longblade]

High dexterity is a joke. The best offensive characters are those who spike con. Because the ability to spam weapon powers > that extra 40 dex, since a weapon power will give a damage bonus from 50%-75%, and dex sucks at increasing damage. This makes no sense and I am not sure what it addresses from the above posts.

[Omnius]

BW warriors get free ambi dex. BW rogues get great dps. whats the real problem?

[Brindle]

Did people forget:
- Tlans are dex based - not a hybrid?
- BW (and BM) give a +10 to sword skill to compensate for the sword skill being Str based?

[Kaelthas]

This makes no sense and I am not sure what it addresses from the above posts.

It addresses the fact that high dex of an elf does not compensate for his loss of con. Con allows for both better damage output (better stamina and more weapon powers) and better survivability compared to dex. A BW will always be weaker than a BM from this reasoning, and as such the BW rune should get a better bonus compared to BM. BW will only out dps BM if both are not allowed to use weapon powers, which will never be the case, seeing that BM weapon powers do more damage, and they have the stamina to spam more powers. BW end up with lower damage and lower survivability. This is a fact that you are trying to deny. BM doesn't need buff, BW does.

[Aurake]

Did people forget:
- Tlans are dex based - not a hybrid?
- BW (and BM) give a +10 to sword skill to compensate for the sword skill being Str based?

T-lans have dex based damage and a str based focus, thus it's concidered hybrid. Also, we've stated before that the +10 trains is usually less then what we received before sword focus was changed, which is still less then what we would have had if sword focus was dex based.

BW warriors get free ambi dex. BW rogues get great dps. whats the real problem?

I still maintain that our ambi isn't free, it's paid for with a discipline slot and by requireing you to be an elf. Free ambi would be a rune anyone can take that doesn't use a slot, and has no point cost. Not a rune that takes your total disciplines down to 3, prevents the use of archmage, and requires you to have a starting base con of 70, as well as being a race that if you increase their con high enough to raise to a maximum of 135 (kind crappy for a con build) you get marginal total stats. Also as I've stated, I don't find duel-wielding to that significantly better then 2handed. 2handed weapons give more parry bonus, and tend to have higher damage styles, as well as styling being more effect, and overall being more stamina efficent then duelwielding (this is a different story if you have a FM bot).

Also, explain to me why BW rogues would have higher damage output then any other duel wielding elf rogue using dex weapons?

[Kaelthas]

2handed weapons give more parry bonus, and tend to have higher damage styles, as well as styling being more effect, and overall being more stamina efficent then duelwielding (this is a different story if you have a FM bot).

Also, explain to me why BW rogues would have higher damage output then any other duel wielding elf rogue using dex weapons?

I agree. Let's compare BW and BM again:

1. BW is elf, less con, less stamina, cannot spam weapon powers, while BM is human, more con, more stamina, can spam weapon powers. Result: BM outdamages BW.

2. BW uses duel wield sword, which drains more stamina and as such will have less stamina to use weapon powers, while BM uses 2 handed sword, which drains less stamina and can spam more weapon powers. Result: BM out damages BW.

3. BW warrior get lvl 35 weapon power, while BM warrior get lvl 40 weapon power. Result: BM outdamages BW.

4. BW's weapon power only does 150% of his damage (actually less than that since there is no GM BW power), while BM weapon power does 175% of his damage. Result: BM outdamages BW.

5. BW will only out dps BM if weapon power does not exist. Which is not the case. Weapon power exist and BM get to spam more weapon powers because of his higher stamina, and less stamina usage, and therefore in practice always out dps BW. Longblade's argument of BW out dps-ing BM is impractical because he fail to (or refuse to) factor in the weapon powers, and keep on repeating the point of "BW duel wield and therefore will out dps BM", which we all know is true ONLY IF there is no such thing as a weapon power.

[Aurake]

Styling damage could be concidered more important since BW's and BM's potentially have more styles to use (up to 20, well 23 if you're a wereform BM).

However, Kaethlas is correct, elves tend to have to be very prudent about how they style, due to stamina constrains, and the drain of duel wielding.

Though on a technical note, I believe styling +damage is given to both weapons if you duel wield, so getting +50% damage twice, by on damage that's 2/3rds of your normal I believe has the same mathmatical effect of getting +50% more on a damage that recieves an extra 1/3rd, or 1/2, I forget what 2handed gets, and I'm too lazy to do all the math (since being out of school, I find you don't use fractions nearly as often as they say you will).

[Kaelthas]

Though on a technical note, I believe styling +damage is given to both weapons if you duel wield, so getting +50% damage twice, by on damage that's 2/3rds of your normal I believe has the same mathmatical effect of getting +50% more on a damage that recieves an extra 1/3rd, or 1/2, I forget what 2handed gets, and I'm too lazy to do all the math (since being out of school, I find you don't use fractions nearly as often as they say you will).

Point taken. The result is the same though, since BM style give 75% bonus damage, and that's enough to outdamage BW's 50% (actually less than 50% because there is no GM BW power), especially when they have more stamina to use it.

[Longblade]

Kaelthas you showed me... that you have no idea what you are talking about. Next you will be telling me that ambi axe users have lower dps than 2h axe users becuase of stam constrains. As I said earlier, this was not, is not a BM/BW comparison.

I stated the issues with both discs. I will leave the thread and you can go ahead and argue about non-issues. You win, no changes for BW.

[Kaelthas]

Kaelthas you showed me... that you have no idea what you are talking about. As I said earlier, this was not, is not a BM/BW comparison.

I stated the issues with both discs. I will leave the thread and you can go ahead and argue about non-issues. You win, no changes for BW.

The five points that I addressed all contributed to the same resullt: BM outperform BW in both damage and survivability. And yet you try to ignore it and says that it is a non-issue when apparently these two disks are not balanced at all. A person who is an advocate should know more about balance instead of kept defending the class he likes.

Try making a decent argument against any of these five points before you declare it as a non-issue.


1. BW is elf, less con, less stamina, cannot spam weapon powers, while BM is human, more con, more stamina, can spam weapon powers. Result: BM outdamages BW.

2. BW uses duel wield sword, which drains more stamina and as such will have less stamina to use weapon powers, while BM uses 2 handed sword, which drains less stamina and can spam more weapon powers. Result: BM out damages BW.

3. BW warrior get lvl 35 weapon power, while BM warrior get lvl 40 weapon power. Result: BM outdamages BW.

4. BW's weapon power only does 150% of his damage (actually less than that since there is no GM BW power), while BM weapon power does 175% of his damage. Result: BM outdamages BW.

5. BW will only out dps BM if weapon power does not exist. Which is not the case. Weapon power exist and BM get to spam more weapon powers because of his higher stamina, and less stamina usage, and therefore in practice always out dps BW. Longblade's argument of BW out dps-ing BM is impractical because he fail to (or refuse to) factor in the weapon powers, and keep on repeating the point of "BW duel wield and therefore will out dps BM", which we all know is true ONLY IF there is no such thing as a weapon power.

[Emerald]

This is a long post I typed out just spewing my thoughts and analysis; to sum it up, I feel both discs are equally viable, and are just that, viable.
The post:

Honestly, I'm more inclined to play my blade weaver than my blade master.(both 150 max dex, besides the elf needing a 15 dex rune. The Aelf BMneeds 3 levels to top out her 140 con - the same con as the elf)

my BW has :(completely self buffed... no hones or priest buffs,etc, need a 15dex rune still)
5011 health
621 stam
228 max damage per hand(270ish buffed I believe, honed is over 300 iirc)
due to personal and lore reasons, I roll with elven plate (4/4/2)(4/4/12 dex)(4/4/windies) and 1 short and 1 long 100% MoR Tlan.(24 con x3) (add the short 110% tlan, damnit)
Simply put, I rip the **** out of stuff.

Now: I have an int based BM, and a dex based BM. I'm going to use the dex based for normality.
Now, my BM has 4104 health, and 512 stam. (nearly the same stat layout, actually more dex, because it has it's runes, it lacks 3 con because it isn't 75)

Self buffed I have 423 max damage

Now, because this character uses werewolf, My REAL self buffed stats are:
124-477 damage, 4782 health, 594 stam. I roll in 10dex/con jewels, with non magic elven MA (pathetic, I know....)

From what I can tell, the characters are pretty much equivalent (besides the fact that I probably should of went HA on the aelf) I don't really have stam problems on my BW, but the BM *is* more stam efficient.

The biggest difference I have seen comes down to trains: BWs seem more focused on combat rather than extra utility, due to disc choices. BMs have more choices, but those choices cost trains, which are a detriment to combat - of course sometimes the utility is enough aid in combat to make up, but somtimes it isn't. My BM, for example, has GS mastery trained up to use visivection and eviscerate. BWs naturally get visivection (under a different name).

When it comes down to it, I find that the blade master has the potential to be more adaptable (more disc choices, can be human for more JM powers + additional styles). They are very similar disciplines with most of the "disc balance" issue really being a "race balance" issue. I find these disciplines(BW/BM) to be more than competitive, lacking only when facing con whore barbarians that I don't get lucky against and stun out of rage... and fliers...and I'm rarely if every honed. Given I'm sure there are better players and characters of both types out there, I really don't see what the problem is.
PS: the BW is much better against vamps due to the fast attack speed.
PSS:Thoughts of Aelf BWs make me touch myself at night
PSSS: This was a BW/BM WARRIOR analysis. I don't have much experience with the other profession of BW/BM, although I've tried most of them.

[Soulein]

This focus of this thread is to discuss what could be done to help Blade Weavers compete with modern Heavy Melee. If you want to compare BW to something, compare it to Chucker warriors/barbs or Great Axe warriors/barbs

[Emerald]

This focus of this thread is to discuss what could be done to help Blade Weavers compete with modern Heavy Melee. If you want to compare BW to something, compare it to Chucker warriors/barbs or Great Axe warriors/barbs
Honestly, I don't see many GA warriors, now chucker warriors, I admit, can kill me on either of the toons. The fact that parry doens't work on chuckers is a problem(but only the dwarf chuckers that are always completely honed are the ones I fear), while the reason I can't kill barbs is due to rage/conwhoreness. But here's the deal - my BM does no better against those con whores than my BW, so how is it fair just to buff one? Honestly, I don't think either NEED the buff.

I can't kill con whore barbs, and dwarves due to hones. Everything else dies. give me hones and i will probably kill the dwarf AND the barb.... to say blade weavers aren't competitive is blasphemy, the same with BM.

[Aurake]

Argh, gotta resist my own temptations at a post direction. I do believe longblade is correct, this is not the thread to compare BW to BM. As where the conversation is slightly relevant, and maybe partly my fault since I bought up duel wield vs. the 2handed BM as I do not think the duel wield granted to BW's should be weighed that heavily in it's balancing.

Let me put this in analogy form, comparing BW to BM in a thread about how to improve BW is like comparing hondas to toyotas when talking about how to competativly race against ferraris.

I kind of feel we should junk this thread, and start over with an analysis of BW's weaknesses and strength, and what it deserves as far as love. Honestly, I probably couldn't have that discussion out side of the context of elves though.

Emerald:
Thank you for bringing some actual numbers to the table. I believe it's much easier to draw compairsons from actual numbers, especially unbuffed like yours. The fact that you play both helps greatly as well.

(note, this is slightly off topic of the thread)
It is your choice to focus on utility powers rather then stright combat ability on an aelfborn/human. They do have more options, but options are... well... optional. My wizzie is like this, I only manage 1650 atr (that's pretty much optimal gear too) because I won't give up utility spells for more atr/damage, but I could reach 2k if I felt like it.

If you have more HP on your elf, it's because you trained toughness higher. I'm actually a bit suprised to see you have that many HP, but I never do elf warriors. Your aelfborn could have even more HP had you invested the trains/con runes in him. I used leg of alac t-lans on my prelate, and he eats stam extreamly quickly even with his +150 stam regen buff. Also, I love the fact you use a long a short t-lan, I always do that as well.

----- Back on topic
BW's need a 110% short t-lan, period, there are no balance issues with this, just do it. (never knew we didn't have one).

As a suggestion for BW's, since you did't like my defense rage idea, would it be possible to allow BW's to parry ranged weapons? We're masters of a very fast dex swords, can we parry stuff a la Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Either innately or through a power.

[Emerald]

I was pondering the ranged parry being like a "mini-rage" as it is very optional and VERY situational, you lose points out of focii for something more than situational, so I don't see it as overpowered; especially when compared to a 60 con buff strip, for example :P

But how can we make this worth 20 points, as opposed to one point, and not be god mode against throwers?



PS:And yes, because I was inclined to train GS mastery, my aelf does not have golded tougness or athletics, I also don't have 24 con jewels on my aelf. My point was that elves seem fine to me, at least.

[Soulein]

Bah never gold parry, all you need is the parry chance buff. Also, 70% GSM is a MUST HAVE.

The simple fact is, skilled players will run when they are getting targeted in GvG.. a Blade Weaver cannot keep up with a sprinter... but a thrower can continue to do damage without moving. Also, GA centaurs dont have to worry about chasing people down as much as BW's do. When we are chasing someone, our fast attack advantage turns into a disadvantage.

Make the 115% BW powe a 4 second stun or a Rage + movement speed. Something that will let us keep up with modern heavy melee.

OR

Fix sync issues.

[Aurake]

I'd say make it like the archmage power block immunity, increase it's duration. If you put 20 trains into it, you can have it up most the time.

Make it insta cast though, seeing as with an elf, if you realized you need it, you may not have 6 seconds. Change the archmage cast time as well =)

Emerald: Remember, warriors are the only elves that get both toughness and athletics.

[Emerald]

I'd say make it like the archmage power block immunity, increase it's duration. If you put 20 trains into it, you can have it up most the time.

Make it insta cast though, seeing as with an elf, if you realized you need it, you may not have 6 seconds. Change the archmage cast time as well =)

Emerald: Remember, warriors are the only elves that get both toughness and athletics.
How often do you see a melee that isn't a warrior or a barb in gvg in the first place?

[Aurake]

I still see rangers and huntresses a good deal, and the scouts that run around the server, if you want to concider them melees.

None of them elves of course.

[Emerald]

I'll give you the ranger, possibly, but the others are there for grounding.

[Aurake]

No, I run into alot of huntresses. Not nessicarly alot of huntresses at banes, but alot of huntresses when out PK'ing and what not. I guess people like to run away fast.

The scouts are mostly vamps, and tend to kind of suck.

But yeah, I see rangers, scouts, and huntresses. Aside from that it's druids and melees now days.

[Soulein]

OK, Im bringing this thread back from the dead. Anyone have thoughts on improving the Blade Weaver discipline? Or elf melee in general for that matter?

[Kargrym]

Instead of a mini-rage, a quick (30sec duration 2min recast)"flurry of blows" that stacks with current weapon speed buffs...


Gee, Please do that with giantkiller since right now its 20 seconds with a 10 min timer.

[cornholio]

agh... old thread.... and long too... diaf Soulein...:D ...anyway I like the +parry idea

[Soulein]

What about raising the elven starting maximum con to 85? It will still be the lowest in the game, but it will give elven melees a chance. Lets face it, glass cannons have no place in modern SB...especially as heavy melee. Perhaps lowering the dex penalty on elven MA/HA is in order?

The only bonuses elf melee get are:
1. Free ambidex + dex based swords.
2. Short 25% Slash/pierce/crush expose that stacks with weapon exposes.

No wereforms
No dark knight
No rage
No snare immunity
No stun immunity
No extra stat points
Horrible stat spread

Bottom Line: There is always another reason to pick another race over elf when making a melee toon.

[Heindelkin]

Bottom Line: There is always another reason to pick another race over elf when making a melee toon.

No character model in Shadowbane is near as beautiful as the Elf.

[Soulein]

While I agree, BWs are sexy... they are still lacking. "Because it looks cool" is not a good reason to make a character.

[Emerald]

Oh no, I accidentally revived it, I misread the post list I was on and thought it was current.